'Who do you know that I don't?': A Conversation with Ry Cooder
by C.P. Heiser

Ry Cooder; photo by Vincent Valdez
In November, Rolling Stone released its “100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time” list, a ranking of the top-100 compiled through the polling of musicians and other experts recruited by the magazine. Ry Cooder appears high on this list, ranked number 31 all time (following slide guitarist Elmore James and just ahead of ZZ Top’s Billy Gibbons). On the only other occasion when the magazine sought to put the world’s greatest guitarists into single file (in 2003), Cooder broke the top ten, coming in eighth place. And it is Cooder, probably as much as any artist appearing in the ranking, who underscores the exasperating reductionism and arbitrary nature of such a list. As a composer, musician and producer he is remarkable precisely for his scope beyond the instrument he plays—for his focus on collaboration (on projects like the Buena Vista Social Club) and the inclusion of traditional influences in his own music. For all his individual greatness and legendary skill as a slide guitarist, Ry Cooder’s career has been anything but singular.
Los Angeles Stories, Cooder’s first book of short fiction, was released in October by City Lights. There is a feeling in the stories, as in much of his music, that something is being documented; that voices, and personal histories, are being preserved not for posterity, but against annihilation by some overriding and corrupted power.
A Los Angeles native, Cooder sets (and dates) his stories in booming 1940s and 50s LA. His best characters — especially the working musicians that often appear — exist in a world we might rightly identify as the hazy space between the numbers of “top one hundred” success. Skipping back and forth across the boundaries of different worlds, Cooder’s characters rub elbows and bend rules, all the while maintaining a delicate kind of invisibility.
I spoke with Ry Cooder in November, not long after the release of Los Angeles Stories. He appears in conversation with journalist Lynell George at
Vroman’s Bookstore tonight.
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Your collection Los Angeles Stories opens with “All in a day’s work,” the story of a friendless man whose job it is to go door to door asking people to list themselves and their occupations or businesses in something called the City Directory, which was sponsored by local business. It called to mind All The Names, the novel by the Portuguese writer José Saramago, which features a clerk trapped in an arcane bureaucracy called the Central Registry, where the records for every birth, marriage and death in the unnamed city are kept. While Saramago’s clerk lives with the weight of the names themselves, your character, Frank, is out finding them, creating a catalogue from scratch. And unlike the unnamed city in Saramago’s novel, the historical Los Angeles of your story is very real, as was the Directory itself. How did you discover it?
I have a friend who’s a garage sale connoisseur — a tool man, a DIY guy, a proponent of “if you can’t unscrew it, you don’t own it.” He ran across the Directory somewhere, and brought it to me. It predates phone books by many years and first appeared before WWI, a time when nobody had phones in their own homes. Just imagining how they compiled this thing, it must have been a huge job. I still don’t really know how they managed it; I just made it up based on how I figured they would have to do it — a huge force assigned to specific territories, going door to door, adding entries and so on.
From that I figured you could invent a character who worked for the City Directory — a simple, do-nothing type of guy who happened to encounter things as he made the rounds on this job. There would be a story behind every door. He’d be the kind of person nobody would mind opening the door for. He’d live on Bunker Hill because you’d want him to contemplate the people who lived there, in those old apartments and big decaying houses.
“All in a day’s work” is set in 1940, in a Los Angeles of limitless growth and possibility, and you present us with this one little guy, literally going door-to-door, noting down the souls of the city in the interest of this growth. For him, the only reality is the one he walks through. He doesn’t even know what’s happening in Europe with “Adolf H,” as another character in the story puts it.

I have this huge map of Los Angeles, a digital scan of a hand drawn map and anytime I lingered on something in the Directory, I’d look it up in the map. With the map and the book I began to visualize the city as it was, and once I did that, it wasn’t hard to imagine people connected to the businesses listed. My character for this story would be assigned to beauty parlors and visit a place called Beauty by Rene — which is inspired by an actual listing in the Directory.
There were all these entrepreneurial people too. Modern, pragmatic people who, during the Depression, began opening up their homes to serve meals. Lunch rooms as they were called. So you had a lot of apartment houses listed by name. Doing other research, I’d seen photographs of the Chili Counter in Aliso Flats, which was opened in front of someone’s house on a residential street. Sure enough, when I looked it up in the Directory, there it was.
There was just a lot of stuff going on at the time that would never fly now. Not that you could necessarily get away with anything, because it was an entirely different mentality; but there was just more space for all kinds of oddball things to happen and be done that in this day and age you just can’t do. What we have now is an endless tableau of corporate underwriting and advertising that undermines that individual impulse to do it yourself.
What came first (to you, at least): the City Directory, or Los Angeles Stories? Were you already writing the stories or did the Directory help you to write them?
The story in the book, and the Directory itself, came later on, after I’d written a majority of the other stories in the collection. Once I got the Directory, and started working on a story, I saw that it would be a good beginning. At that moment having written all the other stories I could see immediately: ‘Ah! I know where I’m going with this!’ If you’re attentive and alert, you’ll be prepared when somebody gives you something valuable to use. I learned that playing music.
Billy Tipton turns up in Los Angeles Stories, a jazz musician and bandleader who is probably most famous for turning out to be gender assigned female at birth. Even though he grew up female, he was able to keep his switch to male presentation more or less secret from the public-at-large until after his death. It’s kind of amazing how a whole community of musicians and groupies kept the secret for so long, enabling Tipton to pass seamlessly in the public eye. How did Tipton find his way into your book?
Secret knowledge comes with belonging to any kind of closed society. For touring musicians, it has a lot to do with being on the road so frequently, apart from families and regular social orders, living in this other world. Tipton is a perfect example of that. I wanted my fictional character — this fella’ Al Mafis who is half-Mexican and who can pass for white (as long as he doesn’t aim too high) — I wanted him to introduce us to that world where the rules can be bent, if you’re careful. In cities, but especially in LA, there was and is an immigrant mixture that blurs color lines. But musicians in particular could go where other people of color simply couldn’t. The members of swing bands, for example, could turn up at parties and homes that other minority people of the time would never be allowed in to. Of course, they might have to enter through different doors, but they were there, and accepted in a certain way.
So in my story, Tipton and my fictional character Al are doing this all over the place, except on totally different scales. And Al knows that if he’s smart and careful, he’s going to find something, and something is going to break for him, though necessarily to a lesser degree than it did for Tipton. The public at the time simply didn’t know what was going on. Like someone says in the story: The white kids who come to see one of these acts: they don’t even know what time it is.
You might say Billy Tipton is just giving us a nice pivot, a good fulcrum, to move some things around. He’s passing, big time. Betty Newlands, the girl he seduces in the story and brings to LA, was the name of the mother of a friend of mine. I still have such a picture of the real Betty in my mind, after all these years, and so I put her in this story, running away with Billy after getting them into trouble. You have to draw from something personal.
Tipton’s a good example of your interest in complex hybrids: people who mix and are mixed and get mixed up in different ways.
You grew up in Santa Monica in the Fifties. Where do you think you got this initial curiosity for the great mix, which we see in your musical collaboration, but now also in your story collection?
Santa Monica was pretty white and it was incredibly segregated. You had a small Mexican and black population which was cornered in a small neighborhood. It was what you call a Sundown town — the kind of place where there could never be free movement for people of color; a pretty hard ass place to be a minority of any kind.
Raymond Chandler writes of Santa Monica pretty dimly — he called it Bay City – but he hated its fascism. Donald Douglas, based in Santa Monica, ran the show there like a fiefdom. Overall, quite a tight-ass little town. I didn’t like it at all when I was a little kid. It was boring, a terrible place. Flat and featureless.
What got you out?
I had a series of eye procedures done to correct my vision when I was a kid, and we had to go to Downtown to see the doctor. I loved looking out the window at the old buildings and apartments. The doctor would give me a pad and pencil and I’d just draw what I saw. ‘Take him up Bunker Hill,’ said the doctor to my mom. ‘Just go up Angels Flight. It’ll be great.’ But my mom was so scared to go into the streets that we never did. Because of that, I was able to see that Bunker Hill and Downtown were where it was at and I started going on my own at a pretty young age.
I loved Pershing Square, and the mix of people. The music that I was interested in — coming from the South — the Oakies and Arkies and all that — it was there. You could see there was a whole world once you got to Downtown. So growing up in Santa Monica, all I wanted to do was leave it. And it was easy. Public transportation was an ordinary thing to do in the Fifties. My mother hated to drive. When she had to do it she was totally overcome by anxiety, so when I was willing to take a bus and a trolley to see my eye doctor in Downtown, she said fine.
Your stories, set in the Forties and the Fifties, feature regular people living in a pretty weird place – Los Angeles – at a time when its growth seemed unstoppable. The city is less a background then a recurring subject for your character sketches, which, as in the case of the tailor Ray Montalvo in “Who do you know that I don’t?”, are almost always concerned with themes of identity and status.
Back then a tailor would be the kind of person who is peripheral, but important. Somehow, for some reason, a tailor is a very confidential person. He is supposed to keep very quiet. Just about the only more confidential person out there is the undertaker. And with that, there is status in the community – so-and-so knows this and so-and-so knows that. Tailors trade in made-to-order outfits, sure, but they trade in secrets too.
My characters don’t have the privilege and carte blanche that rich people do in terms of how they live and preserve their wealth. At the same time this is a time before the dismantling of our trolleys and the construction of the freeway system that Mike Davis writes so well about — a freeway system that functions to cordon off and contain certain communities from spreading into others. So it was more of a wide-open place, more available to everyone.
Spokane, Washington: more than once in Los Angeles Stories, it comes up as a place to go, if you’re leaving LA.
Spokane is the opposite of Los Angeles. Pure white, an end of the road type of place. My dad worked for Grayson’s department stores and he travelled a lot to straighten out problems in their regional stores. He came back from Spokane one time and told me about this whole embezzlement scheme that he’d unearthed and how he confronted this clerk who panicked and blew the whistle on management. I incorporated that story. And then of course Billy Tipton ended up in Spokane, broke and miserable, living in a crappy apartment. Spokane is supposed to be very beautiful, but I guess I view it as the last bend in the road.
Was your dad much of a storyteller?
It was very hard to draw anything out of my dad. He wouldn’t give anything away. The things that told the story for me were the photographs. Not my dad’s, but my dad’s dad — my grandfather — who was a doctor and a photographer and generally an all-around guy who travelled a lot and was curious about a lot of things and took a lot of pictures. My dad kept those photos and I loved to look at them. Those photos got me thinking. And since it was hard to get my dad to ever say what was going on in the photos, I got to making up scenarios for them. Most of the story of [the album] I, Flathead is drawn from those pictures. But as a little kid I would make up stories based on my grandfather’s pictures, and I would mention them to other people. My parents would always scold me — you can’t just say things about yourself that aren’t true! But I just felt the need to interpret them somehow.
