Post-Black and Proud: An Interview with Toure

This Thursday, we sat down with Touré before his reading at Book Soup to talk about his newly released Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?, which collects interviews with 105 influential African-American thinkers, including Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Malcolm Gladwell, all examining what it means to be Black and American in the age of Obama.
A veritable polymath, Touré is a music journalist, novelist, contributing editor at Rolling Stone, MSNBC correspondent, and host of Fuse TV’s Hip Hop Shop. The list goes on: Some fans at the reading referred to him as a “professional tweeter”; his account @Toure has over thirty-seven thousand followers, and he uses the platform to spark daily discussion, responding to and posing individual questions, retweeting invective alongside the hosannas. He’s just as engaging in our interview, discussing his recent book while also touching on the elusive import of a Liberal Arts education, his formative dust-up with the New Yorker, the insidious nature of modern racism, Prince’s sexual legacy, and the worthwhile struggle of wading through Infinite Jest.
Interview and photo: Michael Goetzman
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Starting with your early career and working forward: You dropped out of Emory University with a semester left to go. In hindsight, do you chalk that up as last-ditch adolescent impulse, or was there a clear aim in mind? There’s no doubt it was impulsive, but I knew that I wanted to write; that was the goal. I had already been there for three years, and I stopped understanding why we were doing the whole exercise and what it meant to have a Liberal Arts degree, how that led to a career, and no one could quite explain it. I asked administrators, older students, and graduate students. I needed an answer to “Why are we all doing this march?” And no one could tell me. And I don’t tend to do things when I don’t understand why I’m doing them.
So, I went to New York, got a little apartment, got a little job, and started trying to write for magazines. And when fall came around, and I didn’t go back to school, my parents were like, “What the hell are you
doin’?” Luckily, I landed a little internship at Rolling Stone, which eventually lead to me writing for them. I also met someone at the Village Voice, which led to some writing for them, and I just slowly built this momentum over many years.
What did you learn about writing out there in New York? What advice would you give today’s aspiring writers?
I learned to take every moment very seriously. When I had little assignments I took them very seriously. I didn’t take them any less seriously than I took the bigger assignments, and I think that helped the editors around me think, “We should take him seriously, because he even takes the tiny things seriously.”
I also learned to always, always consider my audience. As a music writer, I was constantly reminding myself that I was a representative for the people, trying to keep in mind what the people want to know, and if the people want to know something the artist doesn’t necessarily want to answer, well, it’s my job to make [the artist] answer it, you know? You’re not on the artists’ side; you’re on the fans’ side.
I also tried to always make every story really interesting, as if it were an event for me and the readers, and never let myself be like, “Oh, well … this is just sort of a ho-hum one.” People always ask, “What’s your favorite story?” And I always say, “The next one,” because even if you don’t love the group yourself, you have to find a reason to say, “This is the most interesting and valuable story I’ll ever write” And, I mean, it will be, to the fan that reads it.
It sounds like it all went off without a hitch. Were there any cataclysmic moments of doubt that made you reconsider the whole thing, or was it pretty much smooth sailing?
Well, in the years between dropping out of Emory and applying to grad school at Columbia, I was writing, moving up the ladder, trying to meet people. I eventually met someone at the New Yorker and, after many attempts, finally came up with an idea for a “Talk of the Town” piece. Those are harder work than anything, because you really have to microscope every choice and every word and finally got one of those in there and then got three or four more in, and wrote a couple that didn’t get in for whatever reason. A lot of the time they over-assign, so you may write something great, and they just won’t use it, because others are more timely or whatever.
In any case, after a while I really wanted to do a feature for them. I found an idea, pitched the hell out of it, and they accepted it. It was a piece about a massive record executive that lived here in L.A. So I ended up spending about two or three weeks living here, just talking to the guy. At first he didn’t want to do the story, and then he sort of embraced me to do it, and the whole thing was really an epic sort of hangout, just writing about him.
And I don’t know what happened. I thought it was good. I thought it was good enough. But… the editor didn’t send it back. I did a total rewrite, and it still wasn’t good enough. A third rewrite and it still wasn’t good enough. I had never encountered that, and finally the editor was like, “Look, this isn’t working out. We can’t keep going back and forth. I’m sorry.” And I was baffled. I’m looking at the story and I’m like, “This looks good to me. I read the New Yorker and this looks like a New Yorker story to me; I don’t understand what happened.” And it really bothered me that that had happened and I wanted to make sure that it never happened again, so I started thinking about applying to Columbia graduate school for creative writing.
So that was when you chose to fully embrace writing?
Yeah, exactly, that failure. The thought was that, if I’m going to commit to this, then I need to understand as much as I can about writing, because I don’t want to have this feeling ever again: the feeling that I was confused, or even the feeling that others knew more about writing than I did. So I went there, chose a concentration in nonfiction, and learned a lot. But after graduating you ended up writing a fair amount of fiction. Right, you had to take a class outside of your concentration, so I took a basic fiction class and they gave me some basic tools about how to write a story, and I ended up writing a story that began the journey toward my first book of short stories.
Is the story you’re referring to “The Sad Sweet Story of Sugar Lips Shinehot and the Portable Promised Land”?
Haha, yes, Sugar Lips Shinehot, yes.
And The Portable Promised Land became the title for your collection of short stories.
Right. I mean, the subtheme of the story is that young writers need encouragement because writing is filled with doubt and you have to find the confidence somewhere. Getting published gives you confidence, but if you’re not getting published yet, how do you get the confidence? I wrote two stories while I was at Columbia, and after I left I submitted one to this contest for Zoetrope All-Story, Francis Ford Coppola’s magazine, and I won the contest. So I got this two-week trip to Belize for a writer’s workshop. While I was there, the editor of Zoetrope was like, “You’re good. You could actually do this … as a job.” And I was pretty blown away. It was really nice to hear. I was like, “I kind of thought that; I know of hoped someone else thought that, but for you, a person that’s actually doing this to say that…” So that launched me into writing a bunch of short stories that would end up as Portable Promised Land and then my first novel Soul City.
So how would you say these two previous books informed Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness? Or do you think of it as a departure?
It’s a departure in that it’s narrative nonfiction. I mean, I have typically liked to look at what is means to be black, and I think you see that in The Portable Promised Land and Soul City in various sort of exaggerated, surreal, and imaginative ways. I used magical realism in those stories because when you encounter narrative as an adult, you kind of know what’s going to happen the first time you see the boy and the girl make eyes, you kind of know that they’re going to end up together, because you’ve already absorbed a million stories. But when you first receive a narrative as a child, of course, you don’t know what’s going to happen, and it’s a much more pure and exciting journey filled with “And then what?”s. “Well, Jack climbed up the beanstalk.” “And then what?!” The thought was that if you use these imaginative, almost childlike elements, you begin to embrace the wonder of not knowing what’s going to happen. One of the things that I ended up finding, however, is that [magical realism] distances you from the reader, because it’s so fantastic and such a leap outside of people’s lives. So I had a desire to write more realistic fiction, with people with real problems instead of these sublime people.
And then I started to feel like fiction is great, but it’s still a trip into another world, whereas nonfiction is a trip into your own world; you choose to read a nonfiction book because you think it will inform your world in some way. And, with fiction, you can’t really share it with your friends unless they’re reading the same book pretty much at the same time. You know, I just read Simon Reynolds’s Retromania, and there are so many moments and ideas that you can pull out and discuss with people who haven’t ever read it. They don’t really need to have read it to engage with it; whereas with fiction, it’s difficult to talk about. So I started to get more interested in the power of nonfiction.
So with nonfiction as the chosen genre, what motivated you to begin working on Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?

When Barack Obama started winning all the caucuses, thirteen in a row, and it was clear that he was going to win the primary, I, along with the rest of the black community, was awestruck. Before Iowa, most optimistic black people would tell you that white America isn’t ready for a black president. Well, it became very clear that they were ready. “When did they get ready? We didn’t know that they were ready.” Something has changed in the country, and that was really the moment where I thought I should put up a thermometer and see where we are and what else has changed in America. Obama is a harbinger of change; the change has happened, and my aim was to explore what that change is.
One of the main concerns of the book is making clear the difference between a “post-racial” society, a phrase that was thrown around a lot after Obama was elected, and a “post-black” one, a term from the art world that you’ve adopted to describe our current political condition. Right. I reject the idea of a “post-racial” society. We’re simply not in one. The word is thrown around a lot, and I’m not even sure what the exact definition is supposed to be. I think it means a society in which race distinctions don’t exist or aren’t acknowledged as meaningful. But race still matters in America, and still affects pretty much everything. With “post-blackness,” I’m talking about something completely different: I’m talking about a concept that comes from the art world, that was used to define artists that attempted to be rooted in but not constrained by their black identity. I’m trying to attack and destroy the idea that there is a correct or legitimate way of doing blackness. Black artists in the 80s and 90s exemplified that. They are coming from black traditions; they might want to paint black people, but then they may not; they may want to relate to European traditions or South American traditions. They want the freedom to transcend their black identity to explore other parts of their identity. Black artists, like other professionals, now feel free to pursue any interest they like, and are no longer burdened with the requirement to represent “the race.”
And, as you said, I started to see this in the real world, which isn’t to say that we’re in a post-black era, where those freedoms to be black however you want to be are open to everybody; it doesn’t mean that racism won’t happen to you. In fact, I spend quite a large part of the book talking about the impact of racism on us and how racism has changed from my grandparents’ time to now, how it is still a central part of how we are formed and shaped. It’s never some incidental thing; it is a seminal thing that shapes how you grow and who you become. A lot of people have said, “This is the most racist thing that ever happened to me, and that moment is a direct link to the person I would end up becoming.”
In the book Henry Louis Gates calls that moment the “scene of instruction.”
Right, and he coined that after seeing that moment a lot in black memoir and literature. Paul Mooney calls it a “nigga wake-up call.” It’s that trauma where society basically informs you, “Hey, this is what being black means. It means a lesser humanity, a lesser intelligence, a lesser worth, a lesser value. You’re a cut below.” One of the things I found in doing research for the book is that the motivations behind old-school racism versus modern racism are exactly the same: it’s spirit murder, a desire to say that you are of lesser value and worth and importance. The difference now, with modern racism, has to do with when it happens and how it’s conveyed. For my grandparents, they saw it coming, and it was very binary and clear; there were racist laws, and it was all very obvious. Now we have all this jargon; we have glass ceilings, stereotype-threat, micro-regressions; we have redlining; we have all these different sorts of racism, which makes it a sort of slippery, amorphous thing, and a lot of the time its like fog: I know it’s there but I can’t quite touch it, and if I tried to explain it to someone they may be like, “Well, aren’t you being a little sensitive? He’s well-meaning.”
Many people you interviewed made the point that modern racism is so insidious precisely because it is often so tacit and covert; they spoke about how the most racist moment of their lives was most likely something they never even knew about, like an opportunity they didn’t even know they had lost.
Exactly. Most of them talked about how the most racist thing that ever happened to them was unknowable, and it’s very complicated to walk around knowing that that there is this ghost in the machine. Elizabeth Alexander, a professor at Yale, talks about the continual underestimation and miscalculation of black intelligence, though it rarely makes itself plain. So this is the danger of “post-black” society; racism becomes covert, and is nonetheless a constant shaper of who we are and how we are.
Do you think you’ll use this book as a jumping-off point for another nonfiction project, or do you have something different in the works?
I do know what my next two or three books will be, but they’re not coming out of this. I toy with the idea of going further into concepts on race, because I think it’s really productive and it really feeds people; they want to talk about it and examine it, but I think I might’ve exhausted it with this book. For my next project, “Skip” Gates asked me to do a lecture series at Harvard. So I’m going to talk about Prince and his relationship to Generation X: how he became an icon and how he fits the longing and desires of Gen X, the idea being that icons don’t become icons simply because they make the best music — it’s not a meritocracy — but because they are saying something that the generation wants to hear.
It’s not coincidental, for example, that Prince’s popularity explodes at the time AIDS explodes. Here’s this hypersexual person at a time where anxiety about sex is greater than ever. I was a virgin at the time I learned about AIDs and about Prince, and yet I still felt that anxiety. You’re a young teenager; you know you’re going to have sex eventually. You’re like, “Shit, you could die from having sex? This is the worst time in the history of the world to be fourteen!” And here comes this guy who’s allowing you to vicariously have amazing, wild, erotic experiences, who looks like he was far more experienced than you could ever be, and it was this crazy Casanova cross-dresser. So he’s doing all this sexual stuff, at home and on stage while the generation is freaked out about sex, and you can put your sexual energy into him just by vicariously experiencing him or wanting to be with him. The published lecture will be out sometime next year, I imagine.
And after that, I’m going to do Nas’s autobiography. He and I just started working on that; we did one chapter and just announced the deal.
And last question, the required one seeing as that you’re dealing with the Los Angeles Review of Books: What are you reading?
I’m glad you asked, because I just made a commitment to myself to try to read Infinite Jest this year; I just started on the plane. I like it; it’s heavy, but I love David Foster Wallace and, you know, whenever I travel I always have a back-up book for whenever my main book starts to flag or bore me or we don’t have a good relationship. So I’m doing this David Foster Wallace thing; I brought Consider the Lobster as my back-up book, but I want to keep pressing on with Infinite Jest. It’s probably one of the few great modern novels that I haven’t read.
Well, I think you’re in good company.
Right, but all the people who have read it are like this is amazing, so I’m stickin’ to it!
